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This podcast is produced by fans of Veronica Mars, and is in no way affiliated with the UPN/CW network, Rob Thomas, or The Powers That Be, and does not reflect the views of any of the entities creating and producing the show. Skip to: MMVO: Hey, this is Michael Muhney. You’re listening to Neptune Pirate Radio. [OPENING THEME MUSIC: Vancefurd- Pirate Song] CAMVO: On Tuesday, May 9th, tragedy struck the hallowed recording studio of Neptune Pirate Radio. The reactions you will hear during this podcast are not voiced by actors. They are the actual recordings of the victims who lived through the horror, anguish, and rhapsody of that fateful day. Some survived. Few will be the same. Mature listening advised. SANDY: Welcome back Pirates, it’s time for our post-finale podcast and finally back from her little hiatus we have Scarlett joining us once again. Welcome back, Scarlett! SCARLETT: Yay! THEO: Welcome back! SCARLETT: Thank you. SANDY: We definitely missed you last week. SCARLETT: Well since Troy left me at the altar, unfortunately I’m stuck with you guys. SANDY: Oh, scoundrel. He’s a scoundrel. SCARLETT: I know. THEO: I can’t say I didn’t warn you. Nothing good can come from Troy. SCARLETT: And for anybody who last week listened to my prediction, I would just like to say I was, eh, drinking my sorrows away because Troy just left me. SANDY: Aw. THEO: Understandable I suppose. SCARLETT: That’s my excuse. It’s all I can say. I’m devastated. Who knew he would really turn out to be that much of a bad boy? SANDY: No kidding. Well, we have a lot to cover in this particular podcast, so. SCARLETT: We do. THEO: Absolutely. SANDY: Let’s give a little rundown on what we have to expect. Um, first of all, we have an exclusive interview with Michael Muhney. THEO: Yes. SCARLETT: Yay! SANDY: Which is very exciting. THEO: You’ll be hearing that later in this very podcast. SANDY: That’s right. SCARLETT: Our favorite Michael. SANDY: I know. We love Michael. He’s so great. Um. And it’s a pretty lengthy interview. It should run about, um, 25 minutes [Scream from Cameron in the BG]. So if you were alarmed by the total running time of this podcast, recognize that a good, good chunk of that is quality Q&A time with our favorite sheriff. [Cameron, the transcriber, will not recognize a damn thing. She would rather be the crème filling in an Aaron McGoodwood sandwich than recognize. You should check yourself before you wreck yourself.] THEO: Please forgive us. But I’m sure once you hear the interview you’ll understand why we’re so excited to have this, to be able to bring this to all the listeners out there. So. SANDY: Exactly. Um. Now Theo you went to a finale-con, right? THEO: Yes I did. I went to the one in New York City here at uh, the Irish Rogue. SCARLETT: Ooh. THEO: Uh, there were about- yeah there was- it was actually a great turnout. I was really shocked. Um. About 20-30 of us got together and we all uh, you know, had a couple drinks and had some food. I brought the snickerdoodles. And uh, we basically took over the upper floor of a pub/restaurant for the night and made them turn it from the Yankees game to Veronica Mars. It was just- it was a blast. We all had a great time and I wanna thank the people that organized it for uh, getting it together and setting it up. I hope we have – knock on wood – I hope we have something like that for the season three premiere. Knock on wood that, that we get one, so. SCARLETT: Don’t jinx us, Theo! Don’t jinx us. SANDY: No kidding. THEO: I’m knocking on wood. SANDY: No kidding. THEO: I’m knocking on every piece of wood. SANDY: I think we need to do the, the anti-jinx cheer, Scarlett. Um. Which is Hands In Pants. SCARLETT: I think we do. Um. Hands In Pants! SANDY: Hands In Pants! Hands In Pants! SCARLETT: Hands In Pants! SANDY: Okay. Good. Ward off those- SCARLETT: Although Polter-Cow did a pretty good job for me last week, so. SANDY: Yeah. He did. He did. Um. Speaking of jinxes and renewal, uh. [Groans. Cameron does more than moan. She breaks a lamp.] SANDY: Oh my God. 7th. Heaven. SCARLETT: Will not die. SANDY: It will not die. THEO: But I don’t understand that. SANDY: One Tree Hill- SCARLETT: It’s like a cockroach in the apocalypse. It’s just… still there. SANDY: I- exactly. I mean One Tree Hill fans, I’m really sorry- THEO: Who watches this show anyway? SANDY: -that we ever mocked you, because… THEO: Yeah. You know what? We’re brothers now. SANDY: We are. THEO: The two shows, our two shows must team up and fend off this great evil. [Laughter] SCARLETT: The greatest evil of all television. THEO: Yes. SCARLETT: Madness. [CAMERON: Where are Buffy and the Potentials now?] SANDY: I don’t know how- whatever. I have no idea what’s going on with that. SCARLETT: I don’t even think we should try and speculate. THEO: No. SANDY: I don’t either. I’m just baffled. Baffled. THEO: I don’t understand. SANDY: But um. We will, for better or for worse, find out the news on May 18th. That’s the date of the upfronts. It’s gonna be a long day kids. SCARLETT: Yeah. THEO: It’s gonna be a long, long week. SCARLETT: Some of us have an exam on the 18th. SANDY: Oh. SCARLETT: By some of us, I mean me. [Laughter] THEO: By some of us I mean me. We’re- we’re done with those. SANDY: Yes. We have no more. THEO: Thank God. SANDY: But we have work on the 18th- THEO: Ech. Don’t we? SANDY: -and I’m gonna get fired, because I’m gonna spend all my day looking for every bit of press all week. SCARLETT: Just refreshing over and over and over. SANDY: Yes. Yes. Is there news? Is there news? Is there news? THEO: Yes. And the next day we’re either gonna be crying in a corner or ecstatic and singing, so. I think the 19th will be pretty much wasted for both of us too. SCARLETT: We have to do a podcast that day. SANDY: It’s true. We do. We will be recording. SCARLETT: Exactly a week. SANDY: Yes. And we’ll either be rejoicing or we’ll be crying and giving our farewell. Hopefully- SCARLETT: Not a farewell. SANDY: -it’s not a farewell. All right. Well let’s not focus on the negative. Let’s, let’s turn to the awesome episode of this week. So good. SCARLETT: How amazing. SANDY: I loved it. And I know it was controversial and there are a lot of people who did not love it. I absolutely loved it and I think we’re all gonna talk about our various reactions to it in really great detail. Um. SCARLETT: Oh definitely. SANDY: But initial reactions. Initial reactions. Mine: heart-pounding love. [Giggles] THEO: Right. Right. Um. I enjoyed it. Though I have to say they really had me with the uh, Keith explosion scare. I hadn’t heard about, sort of- I try to avoid any sort of casting news, and I was terrified that he wasn’t gonna be in any future episodes should it be renewed. And I was so happy to see him appear at the very end. SCARLETT: Oh, so, so happy. THEO: I- I really bit on that one. So uh, well done for the writers there. I have to say my favorite part was the uh, the CW reference. Because I was- SCARLETT: It’s a done deal. THEO: It’s a done deal. SANDY: Rob. THEO: I just loved that. SANDY: Rob just likes jinxing. He likes to make my heart race with all the jinxes. SCARLETT: He does. SANDY: Rob, you’re killing me. You’re killing me. SCARLETT: But you know what’s the most important thing of like the whole episode? I was right! [Laughter. Scarlett makes the “Haaaaa” glowing angels sound.] SCARLETT: I was- well not about Manning. But you know really, who was gonna be right about that? But Beaver being an Evil, Evil Genius. I was right. SANDY: It’s true. THEO: And uh, he actually did die. So uh. SANDY: Yes. SCARLETT: Well yeah, exactly. THEO: I guess you have your way. A lot of angry fans out there don’t. But uh- SANDY: Which we’ll get to, ‘cause we’re gonna invite Bailey. THEO: As long as we can make you happy. As long as we can make you happy, Scarlett. We’re okay. SANDY: Well before we get- SCARLETT: I feel that Rob’s working with me here. SANDY: Before we get too far into this discussion why don’t we take a break and come back and actually delve into the episode in further detail. I think we’re gonna talk about the alternate reality sequence first and then we’ll, we’ll come back to uh, everybody’s favorite subject: Evil Beaver. Sound good? [Laughter] SCARLETT: Sounds excellent. SANDY: All right. We’ll be back, Pirates, right after this. SANDYVO: Logan! Save her Logan! Come on Logan! Come on Logan! [Sandy is not pleading for anything sexual. We think.] [A SONG! OMG! It’s Veronica Hates Me by Screeching Weasel! That can only mean one thing! It means that the Michael Muhney interview has been placed out of order into an earlier section of the podcast! CAMERON IS NOT PREPARED FOR THIS!] [Cameron stocks up on Gatorade and Vitamin E. She will be here for a while.] THEO: Welcome back to the show, Veronica Mars’ fans. Today we’re very happy to have our special, special guest returning. Michael Muhney. The man behind Sheriff Lamb. That’s right- [Michael Muhney will henceforth be known as MM instead of Michael.] MM: [mumble sings] THEO: -is back uh, to talk to us about the finale. So, uh, I’m personally very glad to have him back because this time I can actually talk to him. So. SANDY: Yes. Yes. Our poor Scarlett couldn’t be here. MM: Right. You uh, now I’m cool enough to uh, to be on the phone with you, right? THEO: That’s right. BAILEY: Right. THEO: We had to try you out the first time but I approve. MM: Yes. THEO: So uh, I’ll deign to you now. MM: You had to wait until it was released in the, in the news that I was gonna be a series regular in season three and then you thought, okay. Fine. I’ll talk to him. THEO: Well, yeah. MM: He’s not below me now. THEO: Yeah. The thing is, I wait ‘til people get their name beside one of those little pencil etchings, and then I talk to them. [Laughter] MM: Okay. THEO: Until then I don’t fool with the B-list. I’m sorry. I don’t fool with the B-list. BAILEY: I might be so bold as to say that Michael is now on the same level of coolness as Theo is. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Uh… MM: Yeah. I think I’ve gotten there. [Laughter] THEO: I think. Okay. You know what? I’ll allow it. MM: Let me just say. Let me just say this: I can die now. THEO: No! You better not. Uh, we need you around for several more seasons. So uh. Let’s put off the dying for a little while. But uh, speaking of which. I have to ask you one thing quickly. A lot of people are upset. A lot of people are confused. I’m not one of them. But uh, and none of us here are. But we wanna make sure that Lamb is safe and sound and was not on the plane. MM: No. No Lamb was on the plane. I’m dead. But the season, next year I’ll be uh, sort of recurring as a Lilly ghost, sort of thing. [Fake Ohs all around] SANDY: Oh. Now Veronica’s gonna have nightmares instead of those pleasant little dreams. MM: Honestly, I hate to say it, but a lot of people kinda, you know. I’m glad that they picked up on the fact that yeah; I did in fact explode in the sky mid-flight with Woody. [THEO laughter] [Everyone talks at once. Mad chaos. Cameron can’t take it. So she skips the half-second of podcasting gone wild.] MM: So pieces of our flesh are intermingled forever. THEO: And only after that did they make you a season regular, or a series regular, right? MM: Right. THEO: I mean. MM: Right. THEO: Makes sense. It makes sense. MM: What’s the legend um, how does it go with the uh, uh. A girlfriend of mine, Amber Benson, they finally, the episode that they put her in the opening credits- SANDY: [gasps] Yes! MM: -they killed her. SANDY: Yes! On Buffy! That’s true. When Tara finally made the opening credits. She was gone. MM: Yes. That episode was the one that she died. So, you know, I mean. Rob is just trying to do the same thing with me. [Laughter] SANDY: Oh, now I’m really- THEO: Let’s hope not. Let’s hope not. SANDY: Yeah. Let’s hope not. MM: No. No, no, no, no. No. I wasn’t on the plane and uh, you know, I was back in Neptune and had potentially, um, privately ordered Woody [he means Keith] off the plane. THEO: Ah yes. MM: So even other deputies and everyone else in the sheriff’s department didn’t know about it ‘cause obviously those people, those people then had to go to the Neptune Grand to attend to what happened there with Beaver. THEO: That’s right. MM: And they wouldn’t have known to tell Veronica Woody, uh, Keith wasn’t on the plane. Blah, blah, blah. THEO: Ah. That makes sense. BAILEY: Right. MM: Well um- THEO: You were, you were safe in the warm loving embrace of Madison Sinclair, right? [Laughter] MM: Yeah I was. It was just- she was giving me a backrub and I got on the phone real quick and ordered Keith off. THEO: Yeah. Oh that, that does-that’s just wrong. That’s just wrong on so many levels. SANDY: Are we- are we gonna see any follow up of that, Michael? If the show comes back and all goes well, are we gonna see any- any more fallout from that relationship with Madison or was that just to get Lamb in some regular clothes and get you some, some hot makeout scenes? [Laughter] MM: You know that’s a good question. Um. I don’t- if you just base it on pure instinct alone; I don’t think so. I don’t think you’ll se us together. Um. But what I know about next season is limited to what the rest of us cast members know. SANDY: Sure. MM: You know, I know what the three season mysteries are gonna be and what happens with the, with those arc things. Those arc things? Wow. I am articulate. [Laughter] MM: And intelligent. Yeah. The three arcs uh, I’m aware of and to be honest, none of us are quite sure how the writers and Rob are going to uh, approach um, the first few episodes in sort of where does it pick up- THEO: Yeah. MM: -steam from this finale episode and, you know, obviously the first few episodes are gonna have to be treated like the pilot and the subsequent, you know, first and second episodes after the pilot. Not the pilot that we had a couple years ago, mind you. A whole new pilot to sort of explain to an entire new audience who we are, what are relationships are to each other, and whatever. So. SANDY: Right. MM: There might be a slight bit of redundancy to uh, to the voracious, um, attentive crowd that’s already seen season one and two. They’re gonna be like, wait. I already know that uh, Sheriff Lamb and Monica- uh, Monica? I just called a girlfriend of mine, Monica, earlier- [Laughter] MM: -Veronica have problems with each other. Or Keith who’s like this with this person. Or, you know, oh actually Wallace, which is the best friend. You know. I mean that stuff’s gonna have to get reestablished all over again so are they gonna reestablish me with Madison? Maybe. There could be- THEO: Yeah. MM: -um, something in some sort of expository way it’s explained. But. But you know, I don’t know. I don’t know about uh, any- anything with Madison. THEO: Huh. SANDY: Well I have um, another question for you, which is sort of- you know you talked about sort of knowing that there’s gonna be three arcs next season. My question is: How early on do the members of the cast know who the Big Bad for the season is? Um. I know you said you’ve- MM: Well. SANDY: You figured some of the things out- MM: The truth be- [They both wait for the other to speak. Cameron praises the blessed silence. But she still loves MM!] MM: Truth be told like, you don’t um, you know I mean I guess if you worked in Microsoft in the software department and you, and there, there was some sort of hardware that Microsoft was building, you wouldn’t go to Bill Gates and say, um, “Tell me about, you know, these secrets that you’re gonna be revealing next year with this computer game that you’re building.” Or, you know, blah blah blah, or just- you know, if it’s not in your department it’s really not your business to talk to your boss about that, and so we don’t really go to him and say, “Tell me other things about other characters or other storylines.” THEO: Sure. MM: Um. Because then that’s just us being inquisitive and curious and bothering him. And you don’t, you know, I mean we know we’re gonna find out eventually so what we do is we usually all approach um, Rob in the way that, “Tell me the significant things about my character that I need to know early on so that I can play that throughout the season.” And uh, you know, whatnot. Um. But the other issue is let it be a surprise, because ultimately it’s gonna be a surprise to the uh, to the character anyway. And there are things that can always change throughout a season too, so what was the point of Rob having to explain the story to each and every one of us, so. SANDY: Right. MM: Um. I- I’ll know about what my level of involvement is in the three arcs and uh, also to, to- this is just a theory of mine. But this can sort of um, pacify some people that are probably wanting this old school season long mystery arc sort of a thing. Um. The truth is, in season one –this is just my opinion – in season one but there was this um, this season long mystery, you could say. The arc. But I disagree. I say that the season long uh, issue, was a character driven issue, not a plot driven issue. SANDY: Mhm. MM: You could say it was the murder of Lilly Kane but I think it was more a personal thing to Veronica. And, so. There’s probably gonna be some personal issues to Veronica. And, and relationships with her dad, or with Logan, or with Lamb, or whomever, that are gonna be a season long arc. So there’s probably gonna be season long arcs, but the actual mysteries are gonna be broken up into, you know, trimesters. THEO: Right. SANDY: Right. MM: And uh- BAILEY: Right. MM: So. So I- that’s just my opinion. ‘Cause there’s no way that your, your characters press the reset button after 9 episodes and you go back to- THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Right. MM: -you know, zero again. Of course you’re gonna have whatever relationship that continues growing, blossoming, or- or um, being destroyed. Depending on which way you wanna look at it with, you know, the other characters in the show, so. I think there’s gonna be a season long arc. It’s just not gonna be a mystery. You know. THEO: Sure. [Cameron, the transcriber, is begging for a reprieve. MM must now take her out for two drinks.] SANDY: But if you were- MM: I think I went off on a tangent there. MM: But maybe I cleared things up by doing it. THEO: That’s all right. BAILEY: No it’s great. SANDY: No it’s, it’s great. THEO: No that’s fine. SANDY: But if you were the, if you were the Big Bad. If you were the villain, you would know that pretty early on so you could make the right choices as an actor or is that something that would even come as a surprise? MM: Right. Right, right, right. No. If I were, and obviously I wouldn’t tell you and I would- [Laughter] SANDY: Right. But if you had been last season. MM: I could be doing that right now. You know. I mean, yeah. THEO: Oh. SANDY: Sneaky. MM: You never know, because why, why would they make me a series regular? You never know. SANDY: Yeah. MM: But truth be told, yeah. If you- if you were um, Kyle. Or you were, you know, Harry Hamlin, season one. Um, you’re told. Obviously. Uh, you know. Um. Steve Guttenberg was told at the beginning of the season when we were filming uh, Driver Ed. I was poking at him just for the fun of it, um, to uh, to find out about the end of the season. What’s up with your character? ‘Cause I knew he wasn’t gonna be there just to be the mayor, you know, and obviously- THEO: Sure. MM: -what’d he tell you? What did Rob tell you? And he’s looking at me, and he says, “I had to promise. I had to swear on everything that I wasn’t gonna say anything to the cast, nobody in the cast.” And so, of course he had the information that he had and, and uh, I was dying to get it from him. But it’s the kind of thing that I can just playfully mess around with whereas you don’t wanna go to your boss, and Kristen and Jason all- we don’t wanna go to our boss and bug him about it because then- the guy’s too busy. He’s got too much to do. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Right. MM: The last thing we want to be doing is bothering him about that. But I gotta say, um, yeah he kept it a secret. He didn’t tell anybody. And you need to be informed. Uh, if you’re the actor who’s gonna be the one, the Big Bad, as you say, you’ve gotta know how to sort of play some subtleties throughout the season. I mean, little things that aren’t written into the script but um, a moment or a beat with another actor or, you know, another character on the show where you give them a look. Or something they say, you can take it in two different ways, you know. THEO: Mm. MM: So. THEO: Yeah. I think we’ve all been rewatching season two this week trying to pick apart every single uh, one of Kyle Gallner’s movements. So. SANDY: And they’re there. They’re there. BAILEY: You didn’t do that already? THEO: Well, you know, I- I. I try. But um, I have to- I heard that you guessed a lot of the ending before you actually found out from The Powers That Be. Is that true? Did you- were you able to- MM: Yeah. Yeah. THEO: -figure that out? MM: Yeah, I figured- THEO: How much did you get right and how much did you get wrong? MM: Well, the only part that I got wrong: I knew that somebody was gonna order- I knew that while Duncan was going to, to whack Aaron- however, I thought he was gonna pull like a Jack Ruby and he was gonna, you know, Aaron was gonna be handcuffed and be walking in public and there’s this crowd, and Duncan is just gonna walk by and put a gun to his belly and just boom! THEO: Yeah. MM: And no one even saw who did it kind of a thing, and Duncan just walks off. THEO: Yeah. MM: Um. So the only technicality that I got wrong was that he was ordering a hit on him rather than doing the hit himself. But yeah, you know. Beaver and the bus crash, and um, and Duncan killing Aaron- SANDY: How early? MM: Blah blah blah. THEO: Wow. MM: Yeah. I got all that. SANDY: How early did you get that? I mean, how long did it take you? MM: Well they don’t believe me either. The producers actually don’t believe me. When I told them my theory before we got the final episode, um, to read, um. They were asking me quite seriously who- which other producer or writer – ‘cause they were the only people who knew – who told me. And I was saying, “I’m not gonna get anyone in trouble. I want to be as honest as I can. Nobody told me. I figured it out.” You know, what? THEO: Yeah. MM: And I said, you know, the world is in balance now, because the last season I sort of overcomplicated things in my head and, and um, I- who knows. I don’t remember who I had pegged- THEO: Yeah. MM: -but I mean for all I know it was like, Veronica’s mom was Lilly’s murderer. [Laughter] MM: I like, I went somewhere so obscure that I was wrong with everything. So. THEO: I pegged her for the bus crash. So that just goes to show you how wrong I was, but uh. [Laughter] MM: Well I was really the only in season one. THEO: Yeah. I thought it was gonna be Weevil. I thought, especially after the brilliant scene where you arrested him at graduation, I thought, you know, this guy has nothing else. This character has nothing else, really nowhere else to go, and this huge, you know, he’s been on this kick of personal vengeance lately. So I thought he was gonna off uh, Harry Hamlin’s character. But. I liked the way they did it with CW. The little uh, nod to the new network. I liked that. MM: Yeah. Yeah that was fun. I mean, you can imagine- perhaps it was even more powerful reading it rather than seeing it. You know I’m reading the script and you see it in black and white and it says, “CW.” “Yeah.” “It’s a done deal.” And you just- THEO: It’s a done deal. MM: All of a sudden you just like, get this big grin across your face and you’re like, yeah baby. THEO: Yeah. I was at a, I was at a finale-con with about 30 other people here in New York City and as soon as that line hit everyone looked at each other and gasped. And I was like, ah. It’s good to see everyone got it. So. SANDY: Yeah. And that was on plane day. That was the same day that the plane flew and everybody was already sort of on renewal edge and so. MM: Yup. Yup. And we still are. We still are. THEO: Uuuh. SANDY: Yeah. MM: You never know. But. You know. The truth is, it’s like, I mean, come on. Let’s be honest with ourselves. It’s like 90-10. You know. I still don’t like that there’s- it’s 10 percent, that it could go the bad way- THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Right. MM: -you know. The way I look at it is, you know, you get 100 marbles. Then you color them all, you know, 90 of them white and 10 of them black, and you dig in that jar. You could still pull out a black marble even though it’s a 10 percent chance. THEO: It’s true. SANDY: Right. BAILEY: Right. MM: But the odds are you’re gonna reach your hand in that jar and pull out, you know, the good news. THEO: Yeah. MM: So we’ll see. We’ll see. Wednesday we find out. THEO: Excellent. MM: Thursday is the official announcement, but Wednesday we’ll find out. THEO: Well we’ll be calling you Wednesday night! [Laughter] SANDY: Yes. I think everybody’s on pins and needles. MM: I sort of feel like putting something cryptic online, like uh, leaking something to some degree or another. THEO: Now be careful. We want you to become a series regular. Let’s not go uh, pissing off TPTB just yet. So. MM: Oh, no, no, no. SANDY: You could just write Aaron is whacked. MM: No, no, no, no, no. There’s a difference between I promise I’m gonna do something cryptic and I feel like doing something cryptic. THEO: That’s true. MM: It will only- it will only be a feeling. Because truthfully, once we find out we’re telling our own family and we’re celebrating in our own way, and before you know it, 24 hours later; they’re announcing the news anyway. So. Yeah. SANDY: Yeah. Yeah. THEO: Well in that sense we hope that you consider us your family, you know, since you do have our email you could uh, yeah. No. Not gonna happen, but uh. [Laughter] SANDY: Now that Theo’s stopped um, shunning you. THEO: I had to try. I had to try. MM: That was a good try. Good try man, but uh- THEO: Thank you. MM: Sorry. I’m gonna shoot you down here. THEO: That’s all right. I’m familiar with the feeling. SANDY: You know. I kind of feel like Lamb is responsible for everything that happened. ‘Cause if he had, you know, investigated that, that rape, he might have made the STD trail. Connected Veronica to Cassidy. Found out Cassidy was a rapist. Put him behind bars and um, you know? No bus crash. It’s all you. MM: No, you’re absolutely, you know you’re absolutely right. And you know that’s been discussed on the set, you know. Um. I won’t say with whom. Not with Rob. But you know, it’s been discussed on the set that it’s quite interesting that um, some of the main driving forces of the first season and the second season are this whole rape in the Pilot, and then you look at the finale in season two and there’s Keith being alive or dead on that plane, and Cassidy being exposed for who he is, um. You know. If Lamb had done certain things or gone certain ways, then the show wouldn’t exist. Actually the show would have just been a pilot. There would have been one episode. The sheriff would have investigated, found the guy, blah blah blah, a whole chain of events wouldn’t have happened. THEO: Mhm. MM: You know. So at any given point, what you need in the noir world are characters to do the things that in the real world you wish they wouldn’t. You wish there were a lot more good people doing the right things, whereas there’s gray people sometimes doing the right thing, but more often than not, doing the wrong thing. THEO: Right. MM: And I think that’s the world of noir. And if you wanna go watch um, you know, Gilmore Girls meets 7th Heaven meets uh, you know, uh, Saturday morning cartoons and Sesame Street, then go ahead and watch the sheriff who’s gonna be cheeky and clean and sweet, and waits ‘til you get off the stage to arrest you, and uh, helps everyone in town, and is a crossing guard in his off-duty hours and- THEO: Help old women across the street. MM: -yeah. I mean, you can kiss a bunch of babies and go ahead. Yeah. No. That’s not Veronica Mars. In Veronica Mars, you’re gonna get upset with what characters do and the choices that they make. You know. BAILEY: Right. MM: And that makes the world of noir. So. BAILEY: And that’s what makes people keep tuning in. MM: Right. Exactly. You know. So I mean if there’s- look. The truth is, I mean, there’s emotion behind my character. For example, you know, where a lot of people now on, on several different websites and boards people are so pissed that uh, Lamb arrested Weevil when he did. Why couldn’t he just let him walk? You know. Blah blah blah. Come on. The show is called an hour long blank. THEO: Yeah. MM: Fill in the blank. Freaking drama. What do you want man? What? [Laughter] THEO: Yeah. BAILEY: Right. MM: No conflict and no drama here? You gotta have drama and that’s what this is. Drama. [Drama in Valley voice] Topped with some noir. So. BAILEY: Right. THEO: I love that so many of the things Lamb does- he almost seems to sit back and think: How can I make this even more unpleasant for people? You know. Like the arrest. He could have waited until afterwards, but he’s like, “You know what? No. No. No. We’ll arrest him before he crosses the stage.” And I think that’s one of the reasons I like the character so much. BAILEY: The thing is that people are all up in arms about that, but the jerky part that comes in is that Weevil should have been arrested long before graduation I think. Like as soon as it came to light that he was somehow involved? MM: Mhm. BAILEY: The jerky part is that Sheriff Lamb waited until he was about to stand up to walk across the stage. Like I don’t think he still should have waited. But they should never have gotten to that point. MM: But I, you know- there’s so many- oh God. This is so much fun for me to just picture what, what people must be picturing. So what they’re thinking is that Sheriff Lamb, and his deputy, whoever uh, was the uh, the deputy he walked in with during the graduation ceremony, are like plotting just outside the gymnasium. You know. CUT TO: Sheriff Lamb looks at his watch. Peeking through a window, he’s waiting to see right before Weevil gets his name called, and then says: LAMB MM: And he gets the big grin, and he runs on inside. I mean the truth is he’s coming from somewhere else. He’s a busy guy. He’s the sheriff. There’s no longer a mayor. He’s having to deal with a lot of things, and of course his timing is impeccable, you know, that when he does show up. But he’s not- some things he does intentionally. Other things are just when he gets around to them. But it’s interesting, Theo, what you said, that sometimes you picture Lamb just saying like, “How can I make everyone’s life more difficult?” [Laughter] MM: So what I’d like you to picture from now on- BAILEY: And then laughing maniacally. MM: -right. And then laughing in a maniacal laugh like, over, and he’s lit from underneath, you know, like a flashlight in your face- THEO: Exactly. [Laughter] MM: -you know, straight up like that. Yeah. Well. THEO: Could you grow like, a handlebar moustache too and wear like a big round hat? MM: Yeah. I’m working on that over the summer. I wanna grow that out. Um. THEO: Excellent. MM: No, Theo, what I’d, what I’d like you to picture from now on is the man behind the man behind the man. So what you really have is Rob Thomas sitting at his desk maniacally, with a look in his eye saying, “How can I make it impossible for the other characters in the show through Sheriff Lamb.” And then he goes and he puts paper to pen. THEO: Excellent. MM: So. If you wanna point a finger guys… SANDY: Point it at Rob. MM: Don’t be getting mad at Lamb. Don’t be getting mad at me. THEO: I’m not mad. BAILEY: He’s a real Evil Genius. SANDY: Hey, Lamb saved- MM: Rob Thomas is Lamb! SANDY: -Lamb saved Keith! You know. THEO: I’m, I’m not mad at Lamb. I’m impressed. I’m just so impressed that- [Laughter[ BAILEY: No, that scene was great though. SANDY: And the jerkiness saved Keith’s life, so. THEO: Yeah. MM: Yeah definitely. SANDY: Is Lamb disappointed about that? Is he; is he sad that he inadvertently saved his nemesis’ life? Nemeses? Nemesis? MM: Well uh yes. You’re absolutely right. You’re right. I mean. If you think about it, the face of the show, the identity of Veronica Mars the show as we know it, and if it goes on for another year, another four years, another five years, Keith Mars will be around. He is, he is integral to the storyline and to Veronica’s life. BAILEY: Right. MM: Well if you take Keith out of the picture from the episode of Not Pictured, and then all the way on t the end of whenever Veronica Mars the show finally comes to an end, the show has a completely different identity. So he- everything Rob does is intentional. So for him to have Lamb save Keith’s life, whether it’s inadvertent or not, whether it’s intentional, whether it’s malicious; whatever decision Lamb makes that, that the thing about noir is what’s the end result? The end result is: Yes. By stepping off that plane because Lamb made him do it; it saved his life. And this is now information Veronica has to carry with her every day. SANDY: Mhm. BAILEY: Right. MM: She knows that this is what happened. SANDY: Yeah. MM: So it’s intentional by Rob. That wasn’t just a throwaway thing. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: And we love it. We love that now she’s got this sort of life debt to Lamb. You know, whether she acts on it or not. It’s out there. MM: Yeah. Well she probably won’t. I mean. You know. Who knows? But uh, the fact is that that’s, that’s uh, more wheels turning in her head. It’s more information that’s out there for an audience to realize and sort of embrace. And, and the truth be told, everyone’s up in arms about when Lamb arrested Weevil. But people get so ahead of themselves ‘cause they get – and I love it – ‘cause they get so emotionally charged, but you know, there was this thing throughout season one and part of season two where they’re calling it the Not!Rape. The Not!Rape. The Not!Rape. And truthfully, it- there was a rape. THEO: Yeah. MM: And people were getting ahead of themselves. Well for all you know, you’re so mad at Lamb for arresting Weevil before he walks across the stage: First of all, you’re gonna get a graduation certificate regardless. SANDY: Right. BAILEY: Right. MM: It’s just sort of a colloquialism saying, “I get to walk.” THEO: Yeah. MM: “Walk.” Well yeah, you get to walk across the stage but he’s graduated. THEO: Yeah. MM: But ultimately, what if um, Weevil does a little bit of time and Lamb is the only one who puts in a little bit of extra work and finds out that Weevil isn’t really directly involved and he’s the one who gets him off. And then that’s where it’s the 1 out of 100 times Lamb has an opportunity to do something good, and 99 times he’ll do the- he’ll do it the bad way. But there’s that one redeeming quality from time to time. So it might be Lamb who comes to the rescue for Weevil later. And everyone’s up in arms now. So you never know. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Um. Redeeming qualities: Lamb. That’s- those are two phrases you really don’t hear in the same sentence a lot. [Laughter] SANDY: But there, there are shades of grey. There are shades of grey to the character. I mean we saw the sort of, abuse plot before, and that’s what keeps up guessing. If we always knew that Lamb was gonna take the bad route, you know, if we always knew that he was definitively gonna do the wrong thing it wouldn’t be nearly as interesting to watch. BAILEY: Right. SANDY: It’s sort of, you know, keeping guessing about well, is this time the time he’s gonna do something the right way that makes it interesting. MM: Yeah. And I think there are three- you know there’s probably 100 different shades to all of these characters, but there’s 3 distinct Lambshades that I can, that come to mind, to the forefront. [Cameron is delirious and has now invented the word Lambshades: the different facets or shades found in the character of Sheriff Don Lamb.] MM: There is of course the sort of, the ignorant, stubborn, the arrogant side where he’s purposefully not gonna do something for Veronica or Keith or whomever. Right. And then there’s the side where he’s cocky and playful and fun, so he’s gonna blow you off not because he’s trying to be mean, but just because he doesn’t take you seriously. And so there’s those two negative routes to go. And then of course there’s the third quality where he could, like in the episode Nobody Puts Baby in the Corner, he could let you go and you realize there’s, there’s the inner core of Lamb that’s hardly ever exposed, you know, it does exist. And at any given point in time he can surprise you and go the other direction. And that’s all you need, is that element of surprise from time to time to keep you guessing. BAILEY: Right. MM: What’s he gonna do? BAILEY: Right. Well the thing is is that all the characters on the show are very flawed but we’re so quick to judge Lamb and label him because he was, right from the get go he was a jerk to our heroine. So, we can overlook everyone else’s flaws. Like, for instance, everyone being upset about Lamb arresting Weevil who was directly involved with the murder, but he’s, like you said, it’s those redeeming qualities that kind of keep us on his side. But Lamb, from the get-go we just, we’ve had a grudge against him because of the way he’s acted towards Veronica and her father. SANDY: Yeah. MM: Right. Right. You know. And to a degree you need that. You need to be able to point out the villain, and you know the interesting thing about my character is that: Yes. Every season from time to time there’s gonna be whoever the bad guy of that season is or that particular- now in season three there’ll be three arcs. You know. Who did this? Who did that? You know. Whatever. But, um. The consistent antagonist, villain if you will, season to season, from the pilot all the way until whenever this, you know, this show’s gonna die, is Lamb. And you sort of need that bad guy to point those emotions towards. Um. Because you’ve gotta be cheering for some people and you’ve gotta see redemption in other people, and then some people you just have to basically see the Lex Luthor. You know. Or whatever. BAILEY: Mhm. Right. SANDY: Yeah. Very true. THEO: I think uh- I can’t wait. I hope we’ll have you back. I hope you’ll have us again. Um. When we find out whether the uh, you become a series regular and we’re all knocking on wood for that. And uh, when we find out about the series three renewal. So. MM: Well. It’s um. You know. We uh. In my mind, the hurtle to get over is Wednesday. The show being picked up. SANDY: Right. THEO: Sure. MM: Cause then after that, it all falls into place. THEO: Yeah. MM: And you’ll see me as a series regular. It’s just a matter of, you know, negotiating and all that stuff. THEO: Right. MM: But uh, but truth be told, everyone’s pretty positive about it. We’re hoping Wednesday we wake up and we get to end the day with a smile on our face and some good news. You know, and I’ll talk to you guys maybe at the beginning of uh, the onset of season three when we’re gunning for having an audience two or three times the size of what we’ve had for the last couple of years. THEO: Excellent. MM: We’ll be on a bigger network with a larger broadcast and- THEO: Less competition. MM: You know. More of America can enjoy this show that’s like; it’s like the best-kept secret on TV. SANDY: Yeah. MM: You know that’s, that’s how we should coin the show. It is the best-kept secret on television. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: It’s true. SANDY: It’s very true. THEO: Well we’re uh, trying to actually get the secret out to some people, and we appreciate you being on the show very much. SANDY: Yes. Thanks so much for stopping by, Michael. MM: Thank you guys, really. BAILEY: Thank you. MM: I appreciate it. CAMVO: No. No. No. No! This is where I cry! What the frak, Beaver?! [Cameron disavows all knowledge of the aforementioned freak out she had over the finale. As of… now.] THEO: Welcome back Veronica fans. This segment we will spend discussing the alternate reality and uh, some other things throughout the episode. Sort of a catchall segment if you will. And uh, the first thing I wanna talk about, if it’s okay with you guys, is the- SANDY: No. THEO: -the extended- SANDY: No. THEO: Oh. Sorry. Nevermind. I. I. Well you know what, Sandy? I’m gonna do it anyway. How about that? SANDY: Talking to Michael, talking to Michael Muhney made your head big. THEO: It did. So I’m just gonna ignore you. SCARLETT: Theo would never let that happen. THEO: Um, yeah. And uh, so anyway. The extended alternate reality scene, the nice dream sequence at the beginning. SCARLETT: I loved it. THEO: I thought that was awesome. But I have to say, one of my best friends who likes the show watched the 1st season. She hasn’t seen any of the 2nd season yet, and her biggest problem was she didn’t like Lilly. Like, she didn’t really- SCARLETT: Really? THEO: Yeah. She didn’t- she just didn’t think Lilly was a very sympathetic character, and uh, I have to say I think I agree with her a little more after that, because it shows you how much better of a person Veronica is after having suffered through what she suffered the 1st two years. And sort of how it’s changed her for the better and how she’s, you know, been forced to make all these new friends and sort of question, you know, what she really wants in life. And I liked that in that dream sequence. Um, if she was happy she wouldn’t really have pushed herself into becoming a better person. SCARLETT: I loved Wallace’s “oh, you’re one of those.” THEO: Oh, one of those. Oh yeah. I loved it. SCARLETT: You know it was just so perfect for how she would have turned out in her life. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Although, I found it very strange she was with Logan. SANDY: Yeah. Except that Logan wasn’t really like, Logan. Well, you know. SCARLETT: No he wasn’t. I mean he was wearing all beige and a shirt and tie. He wore a T-shirt to his own graduation. SANDY: Yeah. Well but he’s also, you know, he’s also a completely different person than he would have been had Lilly not died. You know what I mean? THEO: Yeah. Oh yeah. SANDY: His parents would still be alive. SCARLETT: I loved seeing Duncan goofing off, though. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Duncan was like; he was amazing in that little scene. He was just such an ass. I loved him. I was like, what? Why? Why did you have to get all messed up and go away to Australia with your illegitimate child? SANDY: And then become awesome. And then become awesome. SCARLETT: And then become awesome. SANDY: Um. Which we’ll get to. SCARLETT: Awesome? Like Woody Goodman? SANDY: Aawwweeesome. Yeah. You know, I don’t necessarily think that Veronica realized that her life is better as a result of Lilly dying- THEO: Right. SANDY: -I don’t think that’s what we were supposed to get. I just think it showed to her, or it was her coming to terms with the fact that she had idealized this image of normal that wasn’t- THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: That she didn’t need to get back to. SANDY: Right. ‘Cause, you know, normal really was the watchword for this season and that’s where everybody’s problems stemmed from like we talked about a couple podcasts ago about um, you know, the theme of the 1st season being sex and violence and this one being sort of sex, shame, and consequences and whatnot. And, you know, normal being the watchword. And I think it just showed to her: Listen, you idealized Lilly, you idealized this life that you had and you know the life that you got, it wasn’t the one that you asked for but it’s really not quite so bad. You have this great best friend. You have a wonderful dad. You have somebody that loves you even if you’re not acknowledging it. Life could be worse, and then it does get really worse for a little while. THEO: It does. SCARLETT: But you know, after that, after the guns are gone, then it gets a bit better. SANDY: Yes. SCARLETT: Until your dad stands you up at the airport. SANDY: Right. But for a little while- THEO: For reasons unknown. SCARLETT: Kendall Casablancas. For reasons that- seriously. If we don’t get a season three I’m gonna kick Rob’s ass just for that. THEO: Oh yeah. SANDY: No kidding. I wish we would’ve seen Meg in the um, in the alternate reality. SCARLETT: Yes. You know what, I didn’t realize how much I missed Meg until I rewatched season 1, my DVDs. And she was like, a real friend to Veronica when nobody else was. THEO: Oh yeah. SCARLETT: And it made me so angry about the ending that she got. SANDY: Yeah. SCARLETT: Even in I Am God, you know, she was back to being the bitch on the bus. THEO: Mhm. Mhm. SCARLETT: You know. After her uh, deathbed confession that she was sorry and blah. And I liked that because I want closure for them. I was so angry that she was just back to being her kind of bitch season 2 self. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: ‘Cause for me the- I didn’t really realize how important that relationship was. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Until afterwards. THEO: Yeah, you’d think dying would lighten people up about who their high school boyfriend was, don’t you? SCARLETT: Yeah. SANDY: You know. SCARLETT: Well, who knocked them up? Whatever. SANDY: It just, it just shows though that Veronica hadn’t forgiven herself about that. You know. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Yeah. SANDY: She was the one sort of beating herself up about it rather than really being Meg. SCARLETT: I don’t know why though because- let’s not get into the Meg/Duncan debate. But, you know, she got him first. She stole hers on that kind of scale. SANDY: No it’s true. It’s true. I mean, if they, you know, if we’re talking about who had who first. SCARLETT: I feel like such- I do feel like an 8th grader today. I’m just like, it was their fault! They’re evil! Uuh! SANDY: I think it’s- I think it’s ‘cause we’re all so- SCARLETT: I feel like shoving blame at everyone. SANDY: We’re so emotionally drained from, from the finale and from the worry over the upfronts and everything that’s coming up. I think we’re all just sort of like, our intellectual capacities have- SCARLETT: Mine’s gone. SANDY: It’s gone. My capacity for analyzing is gone. SCARLETT: And I wasn’t here last week, so I didn’t get to vent last week. THEO: Oh yeah. You’ve got two weeks of- SCARLETT: Apart from my drunken phone calls to you guys. THEO: Which we love. SANDY: We do love those. THEO: We treasure. SANDY: Um. How awesome- SCARLETT: I made the final podcast. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Yup. SANDY: How awesome was uh, the look on Veronica’s face when people clapped for her at graduation? SCARLETT: Aw. THEO: I did love that. SANDY: That was such a full circle moment for me. SCARLETT: So my girl. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: If you look at the pilot and then you think about how far she’s come from the pilot to that point, I just think it’s amazing. And also very organic. I don’t, I don’t think that any of the transitions were forced. SCARLETT: It was one of the first points that I cried. SANDY: Yeah. Me too. SCARLETT: I just couldn’t even help it. I was like, I was convinced I wasn’t gonna cry because to be honest, I don’t know. Last week was a bit of a downer for me, more so than, eh, previous episodes. So I was a bit worried about this one and then it was just such a sideswipe. It was amazing. And that was kinda- I was also out not to cry and not to be affected, and oh, it blew me away. Totally proved me wrong. But. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: I couldn’t help it. She graduated! Like, that’s the one thing she’s been waiting for, for two years now. SANDY: And people cared. You know? SCARLETT: Yeah. SANDY: They didn’t- they weren’t calling her whore or booing or- SCARLETT: -writing slut on her car. THEO: Right. SANDY: No. She’s come so far and I’m just so proud of her for that. I think it’s really great. SCARLETT: Also, Logan claps like a spaz. [THEO laugh] SANDY: Oh but he looked so cute in his- SCARLETT: What is up with that, Jason Dohring? SANDY: -his little jaunty hat tipped to the side. I loved it. I was like, only Jason Dohring can look that hot in a mortarboard. THEO: And I loved the moment between Veronica and Clemmons. Principal Clemmons. SCARLETT: Yes. SANDY: Oh yeah. THEO: I thought that was amazing. I like his character so much. I think he’s really underappreciated. And uh, I love- SCARLETT: I think we saw- oh sorry. I was gonna say, I think that we saw that he appreciated her a bit more, you know, like in Ain’t No Magic Mountain High Enough. THEO: Yeah. Oh yeah. SCARLETT: And I’m so glad that we kinda got confirmation on that. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Yeah, and I think he, actually, more than anyone else probably around knew exactly how smart she was and what she was capable of. Uh, because back in My Mother the Fiend, uh, you got to see him sort of even using her without her knowledge. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: And uh, so I think they have a mutual respect. SCARLETT: I’m gonna miss him. SANDY: Oh definitely. Me too. THEO: I think so too. Maybe he’ll uh, take up an administrative position at Hearst. Knock on wood. SANDY: Just so we can see him. SCARLETT: That would be so amazing. I would love it. Or, or maybe Mac and Butters will get together and we’ll still get to see him through there. SANDY: Who knows? The possibilities- let’s just get us a season three, and then we can have all summer to speculate on what we’re gonna see. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: I know! We’re like; don’t make us speculate for the rest of our lives. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Exactly. Um. Okay. SCARLETT: Don’t do that to us. SANDY: Well what about- we touched on this before, um, Aaron Echolls? Clarence Weidman? Oh my God. THEO: Oh yeah. SCARLETT: I love that man. I’m sorry; he dies watching himself on the TV screen. He’s such a FAMEWHORE! I love him. THEO: That was such a great twist that he’s actually watching himself on TV. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Uch. SANDY: And Clarence Weidman pulling the trigger. THEO: Yup. SANDY: Duncan redeemed. Duncan redeemed! THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Duncan! SANDY: Yay Duncan! SCARLETT: With little Lilly- building a sandcastle he has someone brutally murdered for him. THEO: Oh I know. SCARLETT: I love it. THEO: Just like a Kane. SANDY: I just like that, that for once everybody stops trying to force down this idea that Duncan is this lily-white angel- THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Yeah. SANDY: -who only has bad actions that are made completely out of his control with his Type IV fake Epilepsy. This was something that he deliberately did, you know? THEO: Yeah. SANDY: And it was dark and twisted, and I loved it. SCARLETT: I think because so many of us loved Lilly so much it wouldn’t have mattered to us who had been the one that, you know, requested Aaron be killed. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: You just wanted it so badly, and you didn’t really realize. At first you’re like, aw, yes. Aaron got free. So much, you know, plot to go for and all that. And I was sure it would have consequences for Logan, which it ended up not having. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Except that he’s now insanely rich. But the fangirls got it right. He has all this money now. But um, Duncan just, for me, he did totally redeem himself, but it seemed in character. You know. He got his vengeance for Lilly. Veronica didn’t get the vengeance. Duncan did. I think that is an amazing little twist there. SANDY: Yeah. I really liked it. I really liked it. SCARLETT: In a way, she didn’t get vengeance for any of her acts that she wanted to. Everybody else did it for her. Even to the point where Logan talks the gun out of her hand and she doesn’t get to shoot Beaver. [CAMERON: HIS NAME IS CASSIDY! Is saying this old yet?] THEO: Mhm. SANDY: Speaking of, I thought the Logan/Veronica scenes this week were so powerful. SCARLETT: They were so on. SANDY: They were just saving each other. It wasn’t like she was a damsel in distress and Logan came to her rescue, you know? THEO: Yeah. SANDY: They were sort of working together as a team, which I thought was really nice. SCARLETT: Like the desperation when Beaver’s about to shoot Logan again and she just jumps on him. THEO: Mhm. SCARLETT: Like, she’s- I mean, as, you know, unmanly as Beaver may be, or seem to be, Veronica’s tiny. And she just throws herself. THEO: Yeah. We don’t get to see the windup to that. It’s sort of, you know- obviously it’s a shocker so we can’t really see the windup, but I’d love to see what goes through her head in the uh, few seconds before Beaver can pull the trigger towards Logan. So. SCARLETT: And she jumps on the crazy guy with the gun. THEO: That’s right. ‘Cause that’s what she does. She’s Veronica. SANDY: Yes. She rules. SCARLETT: Easygoing Veronica Mars. SANDY: Easygoing Veronica Mars. And, you know, I thought it was a nice- I thought it was nice that they could be there for each other as opposed to, you know, him taking care of her. I mean he was taking care of her but, you know, it wasn’t like he… I can’t figure out the right way to say what I’m saying. But it wasn’t just some little damsel in distress with- SCARLETT: It wasn’t a one-sided thing. SANDY: Yeah. Exactly. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: He didn’t feel obligated to take care of her because of the situation. SANDY: Right. THEO: Right. SCARLETT: It just seemed like a very natural way for them to come together. I’ll admit that, I mean, people argue: “Oh, are they in love? Are they not?” It doesn’t matter. It’s all about how they used to be friends. THEO: A long time ago. SCARLETT: I will sing The Dandy Warhols here, but I’m not going to. But yeah. For me, that whole sequence from the roof on, which is all about how they used to be friends, they were good friends, and that all kind of went downhill. And for me that was just- they didn’t care. You know, all the kind of barriers come down with Veronica thinking she’s lost Keith, and finding out she really has been raped. And everything’s so bad that whatever kind of superficial things come between them, like sex and etcetera, doesn’t matter anymore. THEO: Yeah. I think I was disappointed when um, we find out Keith is alive. Not because of that, but then Logan just leaves. I wanted to have like, a little moment with the three of them together, because this: obviously a lot of problems between Logan and Keith. And uh, you know. That’s gotta be dealt with if uh, you know, they wanna try to have a decent new relationship. SCARLETT: A happy little family! THEO: Happy little family. The pitter-patter of little Mars feet. SCARLETT: Aw. [SCARLETT disappears into her fanfic-filled imagination.] SANDY: Yeah but I think- I think that Logan there was, I think that was the respectful thing to do to just sort of let them have their moment, you know? THEO: Yeah. I guess so. SANDY: He didn’t force himself into their moment. He let them- he respected the fact that they needed to be together right then and just sort of slipped out. THEO: Sure. SANDY: Rather than making it about him. THEO: Not even a, not even an, “I’ll catch you guys later?” Just uh, I’m leaving. Walk out. SANDY: ‘Cause I think- SCARLETT: I- I know you’ll get this. I don’t know if Theo will. Wasn’t it totally like, do you remember when you used to watch Buffy and Angel would just disappear? SANDY: Yeah. [CAMERON: Yeeeeeessss.] SCARLETT: Like you would look at a door, and it would just be closing and you’d be like, oh, where’s he gone? That was a totally that kind of moment with Logan. I was like, wow, Logan’s cool points just went up like, a thousand. [Laughter] SANDY: Yeah. SCARLETT: For his mysterious exit, you know? SANDY: Yeah. But I definitely think it was, it was designed to be sort of a, yeah an almost sort of a show of- THEO: Give them a moment. SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Sure. SCARLETT: It was good. It was respectful. THEO: Sure. SANDY: Well I think it’s a sign of- SCARLETT: Also, sad when you think that the first thing he probably went to do is find out his dad’s dead. SANDY: Right. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Well I think um- THEO: Yeah I didn’t think about that. SANDY: -we’ve probably, we could keep talking about every aspect of this but we still have to get to the Beaver discussion, and the music segment, and the whole rest of this podcast. So I think we should probably wrap it up. THEO: Which includes a HUGE [my accent, not Theo’s] interview with Michael Muhney. Very exciting. [CAMERON: Only the first sixteen times. After that… it loses some of its charm.] SANDY: It’s true. It’s true. I’m excited about that as well. Um. So we’re gonna take a break, and we’re gonna come back after this. CAMVO: [sobbing] Rob Thomas! I am never watching this show again! I hate you! I… KNOW Keith is ALIVE and you’re manipulating me some way but this… IS. NOT. RIGHT. [sobbing] THEO: Aargh! Welcome back, Pirates! Uh, now, this segment, we’ll uh, we’ll talk about everyone’s favorite Evil Beaver. SANDY: Woohoo! THEO: And uh, I know. Lots of surprises this week. And I think that was the biggest one. How about- what do you think, Sandy? SANDY: Well I don’t think um, I don’t know that for the rabid Internet fandom fans Beaver being the culprit was particularly surprising. But I know that everybody that I talked to that watches the show who doesn’t spend 900 hours on message boards dissecting every episode was completely floored by the fact that it was Beaver. They were blown away. They came in and sent me emails, called me up and said, “Oh my God! I can’t believe it was Beaver!” So I think whereas a lot of us last week said, everybody thinks it’s Beaver, I don’t think everybody really did. I think those of us who’ve become savvy Veronica Mars watchers- SCARLETT: Unhealthily obsessed. SANDY: Right. Right. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Right. It was really good. Um. We did have one member of our podcast team last week in our podcast predicts segment who hit the nail right on the head. Our transcriber, Cameron. And so we have her here, actually, to chat with us. THEO: Hi, Cameron! CAM: Hey guys, how’s it going? THEO: Cameron, you must be very proud to have guessed the answer to this season’s mystery. CAM: You know I- I don’t think proud is the right word ‘cause I was- I was actually so devastated and horrified the entire time. [Laughter. At Cam’s pain.] THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Aw. THEO: I understand that. SCARLETT: I wasn’t. CAM: Yeah. I mean, I- I’ve never really liked Beaver. I could see where they were going with him, really. But. I mean just the way it unfolded with, especially with the revelation of the rape. I screamed at my television forever. [Not a lie. Sandy has the proof in mp3s.] THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Yeah. SCARLETT: Completely. I don’t care about the bus full of kids. I care about Veronica. [Laughter] THEO: Oh, compassion. Thy name is Scarlett. SCARLETT: It is. SANDY: Yeah. The rape thing was huge. You know somebody online made a really um, a really excellent point, which is that all season long everybody’s been complaining about how we haven’t gotten to know the bus crash victims. Nobody cares about the bus crash victims. Blah blah blah blah blah. We’re not emotionally invested in this mystery. Whatnot. CAM: Mhm. SANDY: But you know, somebody online pointed out to me, and it totally makes sense, that this isn’t the year of the victim. It’s the year of the killer. I mean we were led all season long to emotionally invest in Beaver as a character. And they set him up in a relationship with one of the fan favorites, and they made him seem like a victim and a nice guy. I mean, I think he was a victim. But, you know, to me the emotional resonance from the finale, and the reason it breaks my heart to watch it, and causes my, you know, heart to pound, is because it’s just so devastating to see this guy that you connected with be a killer. Which I think was a nice sort of, you know, reversal of last season. THEO: Yeah. CAM: Yeah. SCARLETT: You know what? I did have one moment of compassion for him, and that was when he screamed, “My name is Cassidy!” at Logan, when he tells him not to jump. I mean that’s just the most stupid point to be like, let’s argue semantics about my name. Forget the fact that I’m suicidal and trying to jump off a building. Get it right. SANDY: Yeah. But I think it was just a symbol of his, his whole despair. SCARLETT: It was so sad. SANDY: Yeah. It was so tragic. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: It was really perfect. That summed up his entire character in like, four words. SANDY: Yeah. SCARLETT: And then of course Logan couldn’t think of anything to say. THEO: Uch. That killed me. I thought that was one of the best moments, where he just sort of looks at Logan and says, “Why shouldn’t I?” And Logan’s like, “Um.” SCARLETT: “Uh.” THEO: “Yeah. That’s a good point. Uh. There are some good movies coming out this summer? Uh. You don’t wanna miss…” You know. I felt so bad for him. SCARLETT: Yeah. CAM: That whole, that whole end sequence with the song which, again so much of this music just elevates every scene, you know, and now every time I hear that song I will think of that moment, but as Sandy pointed out this whole season has been about, really, cultivating a relationship with, with this killer. And it kind of, I guess they’re trying to make you feel like, God, this could be someone I know in real life and what would this be like if this happened to me or with someone I knew. And I think that just compounded everything. I- I was just completely horrified and the finale just stayed with me for days. Even though, you know, that was my, my prediction with Cassidy. So. SANDY: Yeah. I mean I think it’s- somebody else pointed out and I keep pulling in these different fan theories from message boards, but some of them are just so insightful. And this other one that I thought was particularly brilliant was that the first season, all of these bad things made Neptune a bad place. People like Jake Kane. People like Aaron Echolls. Um. The PCHers, a corrupt Sheriff’s Department, all of these things made Neptune such a horrible place for Veronica to live. And this season we saw Neptune, Neptune sort of as the Big Bad. Neptune was the place that created the horror. You know, Neptune was the place that created Cassidy and made Cassidy the way that he was. You know, with putting him in a situation where, you know, he’s got this father that, you know, only cares about money and has this type of personality. And you have a mayor who’s also a child molester, and all these evil things that are going on in this city is what made the person who was the killer, the killer. You know what I mean? THEO: Yeah. SANDY: I’m probably not explaining it nearly as well as she did. But it was such a nice contrast, you know, compare/contrast between last season and this season, it seems like everything sort of inverted. Which is really interesting. Well let’s talk about some of the things that sort of led um, people to pick Beaver out. You know. Some of the hints and clues that were there. THEO: Um. CAM: Well. THEO: For me one of- CAM: There are some- [Long silence. CAM tries to be polite.] CAM: Go ahead. THEO: No, no, no. No, please. You go. [Such a gentleman. Maybe Cameron won’t spill his coffee after all.] CAM: Well on the boards, um, actually people pointed out things in hindsight like: Casa De Killer, and even in um, Driver Ed where Big Dick Casablancas comes home and he says to Cassidy, you know, don’t take the car to… don’t… it’s like, don’t let the valet drive the car because it always comes back with a scratch on it. And that’s probably the episode where Cassidy was off killing Curly Moran. [Credit where credit is due: Thanks mellymo] [Oohs] SCARLETT: Oh I never thought about that. THEO: Huh. CAM: For me, that’s hindsight though for me. It was all these other things. Even the look. Even the look back in A Trip to the Dentist, it always bothered me the way they lingered on his face. And you know- SANDY: And the look he followed her with. CAM: -he’s just very creepy to me. SCARLETT: I mean if you think about it, the first time we’re introduced to him is when he’s uh, berating Veronica with Dick. SANDY: Yeah. Yeah. He’s calling her white trash. SCARLETT: Yeah exactly. I mean that really doesn’t set him up to me to be a sweet guy. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Yeah. And people forgot that really quickly. It seems like, you know, we kept getting, continually throughout the season we kept getting hints about his vengeful and sort of cruel nature with the way he treated Mac, with the comments he would make to Veronica back when we first met him in season one. Crashing the party. SCARLETT: Even to Kendall. SANDY: Right. Even to Kendall. I mean there were a lot of scenes about, you know, where you sort of got a sense that he wasn’t quite little Mr. Sweet and Innocent that they sometimes wanted us to think he was when he was holding hands with Mac. You know. SCARLETT: Yeah. THEO: Yeah. CAM: And even with, with Dick. Um. They always showed Dick to be such a, you know, a dumb guy who was kind of a jackass. But then when I thought back like, all these scenes with Cassidy, anytime he’s not with Mac, really, he’s the same jackass except he’s smart. And I think that’s what scared me the most about him. [Crickets.] SANDY: Yes. Dick with brains. Dangerous combination. [Giggles among us] SANDY: Well um, I definitely think, you know, a lot of people have talked too about spy pens and things that didn’t get picked up and I don’t necessarily know that a spy pen is really a spy pen in the sense that like, we didn’t get resolution on the Sally telegraph. SCARLETT: Yeah. SANDY: And I think, you know, for me that wasn’t really something that needed resolution. For me it was enough to know that he had done something in the past, as part of a vengeful nature that was enough to scare Dick, to make Dick back down. And I don’t think it necessarily; we don’t necessarily need to know what that thing is. It’s enough that we know that he did something that could scare Dick. I think that was all the writers were trying to get across to us at that point. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Is that he can be intimidating. THEO: Sure. SCARLETT: Especially considering Dick’s like twice his size. [CAMERON: Ha! 8th grade laughter!] SCARLETT: He could’ve beaten the crap out of him and he didn’t. SANDY: Exactly. THEO: Oh yeah. SANDY: Exactly. And that was I think my first instance of true dread over what, what was gonna lie in Cassidy’s future. That’s when I got really nervous. It still breaks my heart though. SCARLETT: Everyone got really quiet here. SANDY: I know! Well ‘cause it’s so dark and ominous. Um. When we get- [SCARLETT sings Twilight Zone theme] SCARLETT: Sorry. SANDY: Um. Well I definitely think it’s gonna get even more sad and tragic when we get Bailey in here ‘cause I know she’s just completely distraught. SCARLETT: Oh. But I’m sorry; he raped Veronica. We’re gonna have a war of words here. [Laughter] CAM: Yeah. He’s dead to me. THEO: Yeah. CAM: Well everyone. To everyone, really. THEO: Yeah, I feel really bad- SCARLETT: He’s dead to everyone! CAM: Yeah. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Well and he tried to kill Keith. Let’s be fair. THEO: You don’t come back from trying to kill Keith. You don’t, you don’t win your way back into my heart after you try to kill Keith Mars, so. SCARLETT: Do you think there’s like a Super-Evil Supervillians of Neptune Club? You know, when you die? [Laughter] SCARLETT: He and Aaron Echolls are like, sitting back by the pool, you know, watching Lilly and uh, having a few beers. I think he is. THEO: Oh Gosh. SCARLETT: I think there’s like, and Woody would be there too because of the child molesting. But you know like, there’s gonna be all these evil people like, setting up a clubhouse. I think it would be great. SANDY: That’s a nice little image. I’m sure it’s really hot there. Um. [Laughter] THEO: Not temperate, so to speak. SANDY: It’s a little dry. Um. I think, you know, we’ll probably get into this more with Bailey, but I just, you know, I think Aaron Echolls and Beaver Casablancas, or “my name is Cassidy!” Sorry. Cassidy Casablancas um, are two totally different types of villains. You know. CAM: Yeah. SANDY: You know, people complained about Cassidy being sort of a moustache-twirling cartoon of a villain, and I don’t see that at all. I feel like he was very, very intelligent, had, you know, sort of, if anything more of a split sort of personality. THEO: Oh yeah. SANDY: Not that he has like a clinical split personality, but that he would definitely sort of adopt a persona to do the things he thought that he needed to do. SCARLETT: Well to be able to live with what he’d been doing, like first: raping Veronica. Second: throwing, you know, the busload of kids of a cliff. Like, well not literally throwing but, you know. [Giggles] SCARLETT: I think we’ve all figured he didn’t have those kind of superpowers. But he managed to live with it like, a perfectly normal life for over two years. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: Almost three years. So he has to be a bit, you know, kinda crazy. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: I just think he’s- I just think he categorizes things. I think he, whereas… SCARLETT: He compartmentalizes. SANDY: Yeah. He compartmentalizes and I think he really was just desperate to get back to this nice, little… I mean I think he’s vengeful and mean, clearly. But I also think that there’s a part of him that sort of has the Evil Mastermind side and the kid trying to be normal side. And he would have been happy to live on the normal side of things if Veronica hadn’t interfered. I don’t know. THEO: Oh yeah. I think so too. SCARLETT: Isn’t it funny how his… it’s funny how his vengeance for being molested turned out so differently from Veronica’s vengeance for being raped. CAM: Mhm. SANDY: Yeah. SCARLETT: They’re both looking for vengeance about, you know, sexual misdemeanors, sort of. But they went in two completely different directions. SANDY: Very true. THEO: That’s true. And uh, whereas he took vengeance in a very violent way, she sort of let- had some mercy on him. Even though she could have shot him at the end of that scene. So. SANDY: Yes. SCARLETT: She was more of a kind of, self-destructing. THEO: Yeah. CAM: It was interesting to see, you know, when she shouted at him, you know, you raped me, you killed all the- all these people on the bus, when she shouts all three of those things at him, it just, it seems to hit him. It seems to like, you could see the expression on his face, you know. SCARLETT: Yeah. THEO: Yeah. CAM: The reality of what he’s done. THEO: Yeah well I think it was- CAM: And Kyle Gallner’s just nailed that whole, I mean, wow. I was so impressed. THEO: Absolutely. SANDY: Me too. THEO: Absolutely. It was so nice because I think that’s one of the things that drove him to, you know, basically ending his own life because he’s, in his head he’s been able to justify all these actions. I mean, otherwise how do you live with it. You have to be able to justify killing these kids to protect yourself. You have to be able to justify, I guess, having sex with Veronica to prove whatever you need to prove to yourself, that, you know, you’re not scarred. You’re not whatever you are. And then in the end, she sort rips away all his, you know, all the things, all the, you know, the neat little boxes he puts these crimes in and throws them in his face. So uh, I mean, I don’t know how else he could have reacted to that. But. CAM: Mhm. THEO: Yeah. CAM: And secrets, you know, secrets when they’re shrouded, they kind of have this, this power I guess. You can build them up and justify them. But then when you, when all these secrets are out in the open they lose their power. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Right. Right. That’s a very good point. Once, once the stakes were sort of lost, and he was only left with his crimes, that’s when he sort of had to come to terms with them. THEO: Yeah. CAM: With the ugliness of what he’s done. SANDY: Right. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Well I think, you know, now we’re getting into the more emotional impact side of Beaver’s crimes rather than the sort of mental calculation side of them. So I think we’re probably gonna dial uh, Bailey in here, ‘cause I know, like we said, she feels strongly about this subject. But we thank you, Cameron, for stopping by to chat with us. SCARLETT: Yes. THEO: Thanks Cameron. CAM: Yes. Thank you for having me. SANDY: And, you know, I am apologizing in advance for the length of what will undoubtedly be the longest transcript you are ever gonna have to write for this podcast. [Laughter] CAM: [flat voice] Yes. I’m sure it will be. SANDY: Hopefully you’ll survive. CAM: Yes. SANDY: All right, well we’ll see you soon. CAM: Okay. Thank you, guys. SCARLETT: Bye! THEO: Buh-bye. BAILVO: Huh! Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God! What just happened oh my God oh my God oh my God! Oh my God Beaver! Oh my God oh my God Keith! Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God what are you going to commercial for? [pants] Oh my God! Oh my God! SANDY: Okay. Well. Now it’s time for- BAILEY: Shut up. SANDY: They’re already fighting! BAILEY: I’m sorry. SANDY: They’re already fighting! [Laughter] SANDY: It’s time for Cassidy discussion part two and you can already tell it’s gonna be heated, because these guys are already going at each other’s throats. So we, we got Cameron’s side of things and we know that she sort of sides with Scarlett in the- SCARLETT: Ha! [CAMERON: Bwahaha!] SANDY: -in the Evil Beaver camp. SCARLETT: That was my triumphant noise. [THEO laughs] SANDY: Are you- do you have bells ringing joyful and triumphant in the background too? BAILEY: I’ll make you hear bells, Scarlett. [Maniacal Scarlaughter] THEO: Oh, ladies. Ladies. SCARLETT: At least my prom date won’t kill me. [Laughter] BAILEY: Hey! SCARLETT: Or leave me in a room naked. THEO: Ladies. Not until the Jell-O pool gets here, all right? Let’s save it for later. SANDY: Wow. Wow. Okay. So what we’re gonna do now is have a little- we’re gonna get the other side of Beaver. Um. [Laughter. Cameron laughs as well, and feels less bad about her own words of doom.] SCARLETT: Well it’s better than: Let’s talk about some Beaver. SANDY: It’s true. It’s true. That’s what I said earlier. Um. We, we are gonna talk about Beaver- SCARLETT: Some Beaver. SANDY: -some Beaver- BAILEY: HIS NAME IS CASSIDY! [They all lose it. How can they not?] THEO: Sorry. SCARLETT: That’s the most beautiful thing I’ve ever heard. THEO: We laugh at his dying words. That’s great. That’s Klass. Awesome. BAILEY: Are you serious? Don’t do that. SANDY: Those weren’t his dying words. He said, “That’s what I thought.” Those were his dying words. THEO: Among his dying words. [SCARLETT shouts insults in the background, but they are too low because BAILEY has edited her volume all the way down. Evil Bailey.] SANDY: Oh. All right. Well Bailey. THEO: All right. SANDY: Let’s, let’s hear your- we’ve all given our reactions. What’d you think of the finale? BAILEY: Me? I enjoyed it. I was- after several viewings. Originally, there were some little things, which I’m sure you can guess from hearing me talk about Cassidy in the past. So there were little things that I didn’t like right at first. But I got over my bias and came to terms with everything, and kind of explained it to myself in a way that helped ease the pain a little bit. SANDY: Now, you say come to terms with things. Does that mean you accept that, that Beaver is an evil mastermind? THEO: He’s evil. [SCARLETT laughs] BAILEY: Oh no. Oh no. No. SCARLETT: You accept it! BAILEY: He is not an evil mastermind. I think he’s just a tortured little boy who felt he had no exits, and I’m not in any way trying to redeem what he did, because yes: that’s wrong. And yes: there is something wrong with him, obviously. But I’m just saying I don’t think that he had, that it’s been some big manipulation on his part to pretend to be this sniveling, scared, weak little boy when really he was this big, moustache-twirling villain underneath it all. SANDY: Yeah. [They all talk at once. Cam let’s them fight it out.] THEO: Hey Scarlett? SCARLETT: Yeah? Yeah, Theo? THEO: Scarlett, you think that thing that’s wrong with uh, Beaver, was that HE’S EVIL? Evil, twisted, dark, and villainous? BAILEY: Aren’t we- aren’t we adults here? Aren’t we supposed to be having a discussion? SANDY: Yeah. THEO: Sure. SCARLETT: And it’s all discussion, I’ll put forth a point: He did do the sniveling little boy act when he lies to Veronica about the rape and then brought it back up and said, oh yeah, I’m really good at keeping secrets. He played that for like a whole, almost three years. SANDY: Yeah, but here’s my thing. BAILEY: I don’t think he was playing. I don’t think that- like I said earlier he just got to a point like, um… Sandy and I talked about this to where he was playing a villain. He was- he had to set himself up to do these things that he not necessarily enjoyed doing, but like I said, he got to a point where he felt this was his only out. It was the only thing he could do. And I don’t think anybody who hasn’t been in the exact situation like this could really understand coming to that point, being so broken inside that you feel like you have no other choice. SCARLETT: You rape someone. BAILEY: Well- [Scarchuckle] SANDY: I think- no. I completely agree with you, Bailey. I mean we, like you said, we talked about this before. And I think there’s a difference between saying somebody’s a sociopath and saying somebody- that somebody’s a victim of circumstance. And I think- BAILEY: Exactly. SANDY: -you know, while there has to be something inside of you that, that allows you to have the type of reaction that he had, I do think at the end of the day that a lot of the “you were marvelous” and the, you know… BAILEY: Bravado. SANDY: Yeah. I think it’s a façade. I think it’s fake. I think it’s… I think whereas Aaron Echolls really is pompous and arrogant and moustache twirling, and putting on airs, and I think it’s genuine for him; I don’t think Aaron Echolls would ever jump off the roof of the building. BAILEY: Right. SANDY: ‘Cause he doesn’t, he sees himself as invincible. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Whereas Cassidy clearly doesn’t. BAILEY: I have to make it very clear, like I said, that I’m not redeeming him, and yes, what he did was wrong, and Veronica above anybody else on the show is my favorite. And I’m not gonna back somebody up who’s doing that thing. I just think that there’s a different way of looking at it. ‘Cause originally, the thing that sat funny with me with the finale was just suddenly how we had this complete 180 on the roof and suddenly he was this person who was taking joy in hurting her. And, you know. And that’s what was sitting funny with me because it seemed to come out of the blue. But as, like I said, as I’ve rewatched and talked to Sandy about it, and we kind of like, fleshed things out, I really don’t think that it was just: this is the person that we’ve been seeing all along. But just, you know. SANDY: Right. BAILEY: Like she said, there has to be something inside that allows you to go to that point. THEO: I mean- BAILEY: So I’m not compl- THEO: So. So. Let me try to understand. What you’re basically saying is that you like, understand why he did the crash. You understand everything he did up to that point. I mean, I’m not saying you condone it. I’m saying that, given his circumstances, and I can see this too, you understand why he did those actions. But in the very finale like, where he took pleasure in hurting her, you thought that was too much? BAILEY: Right. Well. The thing, like the thing that I’m saying is- THEO: No. I understand. I understand it completely. BAILEY: Yeah. I wouldn’t even go so far as to say that I understand it because like, I don’t have that thing that he obviously has inside that lets him make those decisions and take it to that step. THEO: Right. BAILEY: I’m just saying that I think he’s coming from a different viewpoint. I don’t think that he’s just specifically killing people ‘cause he’s a cold-blooded sociopath like Aaron. THEO: Of course. SANDY: He’s not; he’s not Ted Bundy. You know. BAILEY: Right. [Scargiggle] SANDY: And neither is, you know, to be fair Aaron Echolls isn’t Ted Bundy either. THEO: No. SANDY: I just think that they’re totally different- I think that we have three different types of villains here. You know. And I think even short of saying I understand, or that taking pleasure- I don’t believe that he was genuinely, necessarily taking pleasure in hurting Veronica. BAILEY: Right. THEO: Sure. I don’t think so either. BAILEY: He was playing it. SANDY: I think that he puts on a front of taking pleasure because that’s what he’s supposed to do and that’s what he steels himself up for to get through the moment he needs to get through. BAILEY: Exactly. THEO: Sure. [SCARLETT: Silence] BAILEY: He’s gotten to this point where he feels he has nothing else to do. It’s all crumbling down in front of him. He’s worked so hard to keep this secret and because- look at his home life. Look at how people view him. His nickname is Beaver. Beaver, for chrissakes. And so, it’s kind of like reconfirming all these feelings he has about himself being weak, and he gets it from his father and his brother, and everyone just views him as this person you can kick around and everything. So. When he’s all, this thing he set up where nobody would know and he could hide this is all crumbling down in front of him, I think he just had a moment and he needed to set himself to do what he felt like he had to do. And I just think that that’s where that villainous type person came up on the roof. I don’t think that’s just- I don’t think that’s who we’ve seen all along. I don’t think that’s who he really is. SANDY: Yeah. And the reason- SCARLETT: I have to say one thing though. I’m so so glad that Big Dick didn’t start taking Beav to the shooting ranges, because if that bullet actually hit Logan in the head, there would be NO coming back from that. THEO: Oh that’s true. BAILEY: You know I thought- I actually thought he hit him in the leg. I was like, oh my God! THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: I know! When it bounces off I’m like, Nooooo! Logan! BAILEY: Yeah. SANDY: Yeah. Thank God Beaver’s a bad shot. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Good on Big Dick. THEO: Well, then again, maybe if he was a better shot he wouldn’t have had to blow up a bus full of kids to take out two people. [Laugh of Scarlett] THEO: So uh. BAILEY: Yeah. That’s pretty- I. I- SCARLETT: That was clever. BAILEY: Like I said before, I don’t understand how you could possibly get to that point to where you could do that, but. God. I think that… THEO: I, I can imagine that. I mean, being dragged out of something like that, and being associated with that is terrifying. BAILEY: Yeah. THEO: I would be- I’m not sure, I’m not sure I know anyone that would go to those lengths to protect secrets like that, but I understand how it feels to sort of have to uh, you know, to put on a façade or put on a front, or you know, sort of gloss over that section. Pretend it doesn’t exist. And to be dragged out of something like that would be terrifying. BAILEY: When you’re kind of comfortable. THEO: When you’re comfortable. And not only that, but you have so much to lose. BAILEY: Right. THEO: Whereas these kids who- the other two kids, we don’t know that much about. We know a little bit. We don’t- they weren’t 09ers, in my opinion. They didn’t have rich, well-to-do families. They didn’t have brothers who would harass them. Uh. BAILEY: Right. THEO: You know. They didn’t have all this stuff, so I can see how terrified he was of not only- I mean he’s already a joke. I mean they call him Beaver! I mean I can see that he’s already terrified. He’s already a joke. And this would just be… BAILEY: Yeah. THEO: …absolutely a nightmare for him. So I can understand why it was crucial for him to silence them. BAILEY: Well I think if you look at the interaction between him and his brother and him and his father this season, you could just see that he strives so hard to be accepted on their level, to have the camaraderie that Big Dick has with Little Dick. And, you know, he just wants to be a part of that. And can you imagine how those two would treat him if that came out. So I think that was one of his biggest motivations for keeping it secret. THEO: Oh yeah. I think so too. SANDY: You know, and I think- I don’t think that if he wasn’t a killer that I would necessarily think Beaver’s a nice guy, ‘cause I think he’s done pretty unkind things in the past. His treatment of Mac and his treatment of Veronica and whatnot. THEO: Yeah. BAILEY: Right. SANDY: But I do think it’s interesting that none of his murders were hands on. You know what I mean? THEO: Yeah. SANDY: They were very- SCARLETT: Oh yeah. SANDY: -he could just press a button and all of a sudden these problems disappeared. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: That’s essentially what he was doing. He didn’t even wanna shoot Veronica. SCARLETT: Yeah. He wanted to get her to walk off the building herself. THEO: Yeah. No I think that’s very telling of him. Um. None of them were hands on. None of them were face to face. SCARLETT: He was disconnecting. THEO: Well. Other than Curly Moran. You have to remember that he did hit him with a car and sort of arrange that- SCARLETT: Oh yeah. THEO: -but still he didn’t actually touch him. Other than the hand thing he could have just- I mean he didn’t do anything but hit him and then just brake at the right time to throw the body off the cliff. BAILEY: Right. Another thing that, um, kind of helped me come to terms with it. Because that, like I said; my problems weren’t that Cassidy was responsible, it was just that transition in character we saw on the roof. The thing that kind of helped me come to terms with it is that he transitions back to the person that we’ve known this whole time before he jumps. And also in the flashbacks, his scared face, and how vulnerable and just terrified he looked in the flashback when they were recording on the computer- just kind of leads me to believe, you know, that that wasn’t the person that we saw. SANDY: Well in the expression that we saw on his face, I think, you know, we make the distinction in the Curly Moran instance, which was- I think I would actually probably classify that as a hands-on-killing. THEO: Yeah. [CAMERON: Oh, the things we spend our time categorizing. Long live fandoms!] SANDY: Um. Much more so than just pushing the button on the phone. THEO: Oh yeah. BAILEY: Right. SANDY: But I think the difference there is that he wasn’t- he didn’t plan on having to kill Curly. He thought the PCHers were gonna do it and he only intervened when Curly started to talk. THEO: Right. SANDY: And actually when he got out of the car and he wipes his mouth, I think he looks physically… BAILEY: Ill. SANDY: …ill at what he’s done. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: ‘Cause he can’t divorce himself from it in the same way that he could divorce himself from blowing up the plane or blowing up the bus. SCARLETT: Mhm. BAILEY: And the thing about the bus crash is that while it had to have been planned to some extent, it was rather sloppy. Like, I know that it had to be planned and executed and everything, but the fact that he was so quick to want to get rid of these other two that he would take out these other people… SANDY: Mhm. BAILEY: Just. I don’t think that- I mean it could point to the fact that he just doesn’t give a damn about anybody else or whatever. But I think it also shows a certain kind of aspect of sloppiness and haste that he didn’t want to wait any longer. He had this one opening and he didn’t want to wait for a time. Damn everybody else. You know? SANDY: Right. BAILEY: I don’t think he sat there and said, "Okay. Well I don’t care about these people. I’m just gonna kill them." I think it was just kind of like, something that came along with the package, and he felt that that’s when he had to do it. THEO: Yeah. BAILEY: And I also think that it’s so funny that people are so quick to hate Cassidy and to judge him and everything when one of the most loved characters, Weevil, has done many bad things and was involved in a murder almost in the same hands-off way that Beaver was involved in the bus crash. This season. SCARLETT: I’m not a fan of Weevil either. THEO: Yeah. I’m not really that much of a fan of Weevil. SCARLETT: I don’t like him either. THEO: But I think he’s a little- his actions are a bit more defensible. Uh. SANDY: You know- THEO: I just think it’s- I think there’s a difference. BAILEY: It’s revenge. But it’s revenge on both counts. THEO: It’s not- it’s not revenge for the kids on the bus. They didn’t do anything to him. BAILEY: No I know. THEO: They just wanted to come out with- they just wanted to be out with what happened to them so they could start, I don’t know, I guess healing or stop him from doing it again. BAILEY: Right. But it kind of just, it makes me… I hate to go off on this tangent, but like the state of society today. That you would rather go to that point where you would kill people to protect your secret rather than having anybody know about it. I know it’s the very thing that’s- that people are ashamed of and everything, but it’s just because people who go through that are persecuted. And it’s sad, but it’s true. SANDY: Yeah. Well especially, you know. I think it’s interesting, the point that you made offhandedly that somehow it seems like it’s even worse in the situation like, that Beaver’s in. And I’m not saying that it is truly worse, but that it seemed worse to him to come from this sort of society family that would look even less favorably upon what had happened than say a family that isn’t necessarily- BAILEY: A loving, supportive family. SANDY: -Right. A loving, supportive family. THEO: Yeah. SANDY: Right. SCARLETT: The two of them would have probably just shrugged and put it under the rug rather than actually help him with it. SANDY: Right. THEO: Oh yeah. SCARLETT: Just to make sure that no one found out. BAILEY: Dick would have ribbed him on it. Definitely. SANDY: Or just disowned him. BAILEY: It would have been a party joke. SANDY: I don’t think that Dick would have even joked about it. I think that Dick would have just; I think he would have almost ceased to exist. THEO: Oh they would have never talked about it. It would have never been spoken of. I don’t even know if he had told the father, if he had told Big Dick, I don’t even know if Big Dick would have even told Dick Jr. BAILEY: Yeah. SCARLETT: No. THEO: So. It’s just one of those things that gets swept under the rug, and you just don’t talk about it. Period. BAILEY: And it definitely wouldn’t have helped his weakling image. THEO: Oh no. SANDY: No. Definitely not. Well I think we’ve kind of covered both sides of um, Mr. Cassidy. So we should probably take a break and come back for music. THEO: Excellent. SANDY: But hopefully you weren’t to devastated Bailey. THEO: We need you. BAILEY: No. I, I was. SCARLETT: We need you for music. [Laughter] SANDY: That’s the only reason why we care. THEO: That’s right. BAILEY: I was- I’m still in mourning. But I took off my black veil this morning so things seem to be going a little better. THEO: Very good. SCARLETT: Aw. SANDY: Oh good. Good, good, good. All right. Well we’ll take a break and we’ll see you in a little bit. SANDYVO: Oh my God! Ohhohohoho my God! Oh my God! [Cameron cannot believe they are truly giving her a SONG! A SONG! Her sense of humor expired somewhere back on page 57. This is sweet relief.] [SONG PLAYS! The Way You Are by 46 Bliss. How appropriate.] BAILEYVO: [gasp] [gasp] [GASP] Oh my God! Oh my God! Clarence Weidman! [Gasp] Oh my God! SCARLETT: Hi, Pirates! We’re back. Theo’s Jell-O pool came in, and me and Bailey have worked out our issues. So now we’re ready to do the music segment! [Laughter] SANDY: Excellent. It was a pretty good fight kids. I was impressed. THEO: Yeah. SCARLETT: It was, wasn’t it? BAILEY: All is well. SCARLETT: I’m never getting this lime Jell-O out of my hair again. Ever. THEO: I- I can smell it. [Insane laughter] [CAMERON: I’m a little creeped out. And also slightly hungry.] SCARLETT: I’m responsible. THEO: Sorry. SANDY: Oh guys. SCARLETT: Apparently in this episode… THEO: …there was some music. SANDY: Yeah. One or two or seven songs. [Giggles] THEO: Yeah. BAILEY: There were 7 songs but there’s only, um, 4 that are identifiable as of yet. SCARLETT: Ooh. BAILEY: Um. Of course we had Pomp and Circumstance at the graduation. So I don’t think I need to tell anybody that. [SANDY tries to hum it, but just goes: “Rowr, rowr, rowr, rowr…” The tune is absolutely not that song. Please email her.] SCARLETT: I love Clemmons. I love him. BAILEY: He’s great. [They finally pay attention to the “Rowr.”] THEO: What are, what are you singing? SANDY: Pomp and Circumstance, dummy. [Wild laughter] THEO: Really? SANDY: Yes. THEO: Really? BAILEY: You know what’s kind of funny? I didn’t have Pomp and Circumstance at my graduation. THEO: Wow. SANDY: Really? THEO: Did- where did you- BAILEY: You know, now that I think about it I’m kind of bitter. SCARLETT: Neither did I, actually. THEO: Where did you graduate? Mars? BAILEY: I did. THEO: Uch. BAILEY: Okay. Well. The next song that we hear is when Cassidy and Mac go into the party after graduation, and that is not identified. Actually, the next three are not identified. And the third one is when Beaver’s chugging his liquid courage. SANDY: It’s liquid. It’s courage. It’s liquid courage. THEO: It’s liquid courage. Sorry. [Laughter] BAILEY: Hey! I didn’t even remember that. That’s, I can chalk, I can also add that to my Why Beaver Isn’t Evil and that Person We Saw on the Roof Wasn’t Really Him. SANDY: ‘Cause he was drunk? BAILEY: Yes. [Laughter] [CAMERON: Don’t you dare derail this podcast now. I am 10 minutes from the end of this EPIC podcast and I will not stand for tangents!] BAILEY: Yeah but, that’s a little weak to note so I’m just gonna go on. SCARLETT: I wish that excuse worked for me! BAILEY: I’m just gonna go on to the next song. SCARLETT: You guys, I was drunk! [Laughter. Cameron is wary.] THEO: Sorry I blew up the bus. I was drunk! SCARLETT: I was drunk! [They are delirious with laughter. Cameron decides to get drunk, if the podcasters get her warning.] [More laughter] BAILEY: Hey. SANDY: Hey. That would fit in perfectly on 7th Heaven. [Okay. Cameron laughs too.] SANDY: No. No! On 7th Heaven they have this- SCARLETT: Oh my God! Guys! THEO: Say- don’t give them ideas, all right. SANDY: No! SCARLETT: Can Aaron and Beaver go on 7th Heaven? SANDY: Yes. SCARLETT: Can Aaron and Beaver go on 7th Heaven with the clubhouse? SANDY: Yes. THEO: Oh I love it. [Cameron is no longer laughing. That’s what happens when all hope dies.] SANDY: The- okay. On 7th Heaven. [Is this music?] BAILEY: Nobody on 7th Heaven can get drunk or else you get that foreboding music like when they found out their mom smoked pot. SANDY: Yeah. They had that, that episode where Simon killed a kid. But then they made it okay because the kid had had half a beer or like, something. I don’t remember, ‘cause I don’t watch! THEO: What? [CAMERON: Oh really? Because it sound like YOU DO! And I am not pleased with anyone who gave that show a renewal. NOT PLEASED!] SANDY: But the kid had like, smoked this, a marijuana cigarette or something so the fact that Simon mowed him down with his car- [And now Cameron is laughing again. Because really, only on 7th Heaven.] THEO: Oh God! SANDY: -was rendered fine! [Laughter] THEO: I haven’t heard the phrase “marijuana cigarette” in so long. BAILEY: I know. [Laughter] SCARLETT: You know what? If- if- [THEO Laughter] BAILEY: Simon was laughing maniacally and that other little girl was playing the piano and… SANDY: Oh. Good times. BAILEY: Yeah. SCARLETT: I love how this has turned into a podcast for 7th Heaven. [Laughter] BAILEY; Yes. [Cameron is instantly sobered. This podcast has made her manic-depressive. And the smell from her air conditioner is making her woozy] [Laughter] BAILEY: Okay. Well the next and last unidentified song was when Veronica figured out that Beaver wasn’t the pictured person in the… SANDY: He was Not Pictured. BAILEY: …that Beaver was Not Pictured. Yes. And she- SCARLETT: Oh…. In the- THEO: In the picture? [Laughter] SCARLETT: In the picture? The picture in the picture picture…[etc] BAILEY: Yah. THEO: That’s exactly right. BAILEY: Well. It’s when she goes to the party and she’s asking Logan and Dick about where he is. And so if you know any of those three songs feel free to email me at: bailey@neptunepirateradio.com. And that’s… yes. bailey@neptunepirateradio.com. SANDY: Remember where you work. BAILEY: And then the next- SCARLETT: Bailey, have you had some liquid courage for yourself? That would work if I could speak. BAILEY: Hey. I’m doped. I’m doped up on flu medication. [CAMERON: Not marijuana cigarettes?] THEO: Oh. SANDY: Hey can I just say something really quick. Because it’s hurting my heart inside right now. Um. Making fun of 7th Heaven in this podcast does not count as a jinx because it’s already been officially renewed. Right. THEO: That’s right. SCARLETT: Yeah. We’re allowed to make fun of it now. SANDY: So it’s not like we’re actively hurting their chances. So we’re allowed to make fun of it. So it’s not a jinx, right? I’m cool? BAILEY: Right. Goodnight and good luck. SANDY: Okay. I’m gonna knock on wood again. THEO: Yeah. That’s true. SCARLETT: But if we don’t get picked up and 7th Heaven has… THEO: If we could jinx the people at 7th Heaven I would look into that. SCARLETT: We would. THEO: I’d look into that. SANDY: But we can’t. SCARLETT: We would be like Beaver that way. BAILEY: The show that would never die. You know I’m gonna go on to the next song now. THEO: Please do. BAILEY: And this is when we have the flashback of Curly’s death. That’s Stranglehold by Ted Nugent. I am not ashamed to admit that I am a Ted Nugent fan. THEO: Oh. SANDY: What? [Laughter] BAILEY: I am a fan of his music, not a fan of him. I should clarify. [Laughter] THEO: All right then. SANDY: Bailey. Bailey. You’re already are a Beaver fan. BAILEY: You know. Leave me alone. THEO: And a Ted Nugent fan? Wow. SCARLETT: You have wide taste. BAILEY: I have wide… I have a wide range of tastes. THEO: That’s all right. BAILEY: And we’re not even gonna touch the Beaver comment on that one. [Everyone. Laughing.] SCARLETT: Ha! Love it. THEO: Oh. Welcome to 8th grade listeners. Welcome. BAILEY: Yes. THEO: You thought you were gone. Oh no. Oh we’re bringing it back. SCARLETT: Pigtail pulling is back. BAILEY: Yay. THEO: That’s right. I’m gonna go snap someone’s bra in a minute. SCARLETT: Yay. BAILEY: That was- I have bad snapping of bra memories. [Laughter] SCARLETT: Aw. BAILEY: Okay. Anyway. The next song is See My Friends by Gravenhurst. SANDY: Oh. BAILEY: And that’s a cover of The Kinks’ song, which I’m a big Kinks fan as well and so I thought that I might be a little upset at that. But they did a really good job and I think it fit perfectly in the scene just when- SCARLETT: It was creepy. BAILEY: -yeah. SANDY: It was really good. THEO: Yeah. BAILEY: It was when Cassidy jumps and then it goes on into the scene where they find Mac and that song was just- I think they couldn’t have used a better song. THEO: Mhm. I agree. BAILEY: I think it fit in there perfectly. And uh- SCARLETT: They do that so often. They just pick the perfect songs. BAILEY: They do. Why are they so cool? SCARLETT: I don’t know. I wish I was that cool. BAILEY: I do- yeah me too. SCARLETT: Rob, be my friend. [Laughter] BAILEY: We’ll be like, BFF. THEO: Forever. SCARLETT: Don’t you want us to be like, totally BFF! [Laughter] THEO: That is terrifying. SANDY: No. Rob’s sitting back saying be your own FF. THEO: That’s right. SANDY: It’s very unfortunate. SCARLETT: He is. SANDY: We love you though. And we want you to have a 3rd season. THEO: You know what? Maybe after this week Rob we’ll be everyone’s BFF, so. BAILEY: Hopefully. THEO: That’s right. BAILEY: Yes. Anyway. Um, See My Friends is on their album Fires in Distant Buildings, and you can check out their MySpace, which is: www.myspace.com/gravenhurst. And See My Friends isn’t on there but they have some other really great songs up for you to listen to and download. THEO: Excellent. BAILEY: And the next song is what- when I was watching the show I identified as: oh my God, it’s Happy Music. [Laughter] BAILEY: It is Paul Westerberg with Time Flies Tomorrow, and this is when Logan and Veronica’s kiss goodbye and Kendall walks up and… brings the mysterious briefcase. SCARLETT: Reeling in the Squee! THEO: Oh yeah. SCARLETT: Reeling. It. In. SANDY: It’s true. That is, that is the squee moment. The spinning. [SCARLETT unreels] SCARLETT: Sorry. SANDY: Spinning! There was spinning! SCARLETT: It was a Hands In Pants happy moment. SANDY: That was a lot happier than Hands In Pants. THEO: Yeah. I was gonna say. SANDY: Hands In Pants was a beautiful moment but it wasn’t happy. THEO: It was certainly not the high point of their relationship. BAILEY: Well maybe if Logan had had his Hands In Pants while doing it… SCARLETT: Hands In. THEO: You know I think- SCARLETT: In whose pants? THEO: Oh! [Laughter] THEO: Hi. Um. No see I think that if Logan- SCARLETT: See we’re back to 8th grade. THEO: I think that the fact that Logan didn’t have his hands in his pants kind of helped that moment because there is some kissing and pushing and… it was good. SCARLETT: It was nice. SANDY: Spinning. Spinning. There was spinning. SCARLETT: Spinning! And twirling and- BAILEY: And smiling and… SCARLETT: And happy. SANDY: That was nice. BAILEY: Why did those two do like-? SCARLETT And nose rubbing and Eskimo kissing! Why aren’t they happy all the time? Why? Why, Rob? BAILEY: We wouldn’t watch. You have to admit it. We wouldn’t watch. SANDY: It’s true. BAILEY: If they were always happy. SCARLETT: I would. [Laughter] BAILEY: You can find Time Flies Tomorrow on his album Eventually, and you can also find out a little bit more about him on his AOL page which is: http://members.aol.com/paulspage, and we’ll link to that on the site. And that’s it for music this week. SANDY: Very cool. THEO: Great. Very cool. BAILEY: I. You know, after I watched the episode I was like, was there music? I didn’t notice. SANDY: Yes. BAILEY: I was like, sobbing uncontrollably. SCARLETT: I did identify two songs, which was when obviously Beaver jumped, and the Logan/Veronica bit. But apart from that it all merged- it must have merged in because I’ve watched that episode so many times and I was like, were there songs or was it score? You know. I didn’t even notice. BAILEY: Yeah. I didn’t either. SANDY: I always forget about the songs for the party scenes. They never register with me. THEO: Yeah. BAILEY: I, like she said, I registered the one where Cassidy jumped and the one at the end and then the rest of them- I didn’t even know there was music elsewhere. SCARLETT: Maybe because the last few episodes it’s been so obvious that with the music he uses is- you know like, eh, with I Hear the Bells and Sway, and such. You know. Like we’ve been really aware that the music’s there. THEO: Mhm. SANDY: Right. BAILEY: Right. SANDY: Very cool. SCARLETT: And that just didn’t happen this time. THEO: Nope. SANDY: Well. I think it’s time for us to take another break guys. THEO: I think so too. BAILEY: I guess so. SANDY: And we’ll be back after this. Thanks for stopping by, Bailey. THEO: Thanks Bailey. BAILEY: Bye. THEO: Bye. SCARVO: [sobbing] I can’t stop crying. Um. I’d just like to say: Bailey. If I wasn’t so devastated right now, I would be doing the I Told You So dance. And in fact, as soon as I regain, eh, my motor functions, I will be doing the I Told You So dance. ‘Cause Beaver, is fucking evil. Oh my God so glad he’s dead. Hi. I was right. Oh, he died. But, um. Yeah. Your evil, evil boyfriend raped my girl. THEO: Well. Pirates. Thanks for joining us for another podcast, and tune in next week when we will all be discussing the uh, the fate of the show itself. So uh, everyone keep their fingers crossed. [CAMERON: As if my mangled hands have any dexterity left at all.] THEO: Knock on wood. Pray to whatever gods you know, uh, can save it. And uh, Sandy? SANDY: Yeah. THEO: I’ll give it to you. SANDY: Yeah. I think um, I’m gonna certainly be waiting with bated breath myself. And we can’t wait to see you next week, Pirates. We hope we have some good news. Scarlett? SCARLETT: This is Scarlett with your inspirational message for the week: The most tragic thing in the world is the man of genius who is not a man of honor. –George Bernard Shaw. We’ll see you next week, Pirates. [CLOSING THEME! Brent Pocker- Neptune’s Water] BAILEY: If you enjoyed the music you heard here tonight, find out more at www.neptunepirateradio.com or email me at bailey@neptunepirateradio.com. Additionally, some of the music you heard here tonight was provided by the Podshow Podsafe music network. Check it out at: http://music.podshow.com. Congratulations on making it through season two, Mars’ fans. [END BROADCAST] [Cameron, the transcriber, hates you all. For now. She’ll get over it when she regains feeling in the region from her fingertips to her elbows. Seriously. That was LONG. EPIC. And not in the: I Get to Make Out with Half-Naked Hands In Pants Logan.] [Cities rose and fell. A wild gang of drunken rebels began a revolution, but all cowered and dispersed after one sinister glare from Annie Camden. Buffy saved the world from apocalypse. And this was only during the Michael Muhney interview.] [Cameron does not know if she can ever trust the podcasters again. “You played me!”] [74 pages. “Rawr rawr rawr rawr.”] [END TRANSCRIPT] |